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Browny can I suggest you look at the Adopters with Birth Children board, and in particular the most recent threads.

On a general point, adoped children very often have additional needs, sometimes very significant. You need to think about the impact of a traumatised child on your birth children.

To be honest I'm not entirely comfortable with your idea of your birth children being a ' gift'' to an adopted child, That adopted child may already have numerous siblings, they may feel very outnumbered by your birth chilren, they may see them as rivals, they probably won't see them as a gift.

I agree with Serrakunda. Your wife has done all the reading and is informed and thus undecided for a VERY good reason! You need to listen to her and to be honest put this idea aside for a very long time - especially as i am sure she will be the main carer whilst you are out of the house working for most of the day. if you do decided to go ahead with this you need to have a very big age gap between your youngest birth child and the adopted child and that is because adopted children do have a lot of additional needs due to trauma/attachment/genetics etc.

Also you say that if you are not able to provide enough 121 attention that will be your problem - well no it will also be the problem of your birth children and your adopted child. With all due respect you are looking at this through rose coloured spectacles with no real understanding of the impact having an adopted child with additional needs will have on your birth children.

We have two bs - one nearly 18 and one 8 and my ad is 12. We brought her home when she was 13 months old and she has adhd, odd, dyslexia, dyspraxia and asd. Life with her is VERY challenging and her behaviour impacts on the whole family especially my youngest bs because they are so close in age. My ad has complete meltdowns over absolutely nothing, i have her running around the house screaming and shouting, climbing on tables and kicking over dining room chairs, throwing things at me and swearing profusely, hitting her younger brother and taking stuff of him, deliberately annoying behaviour, climbing over banister rails rather than using the stairs (very dangerous), climbing out of downstairs windows and running off down the road, family holidays are a nightmare because she cannot deal with the changes to her routine or environment, either side of school holidays are also a nightmare because again she cannot deal with the changes to her routine or environment - the list is endless and i could go on and on. How would you be able to deal with any of this type of behaviour and also the needs of your three birth children????

I am sorry to sound harsh but you really do need to do some reading and start looking at the realities of adoption. In fact in my opinion you need to put the needs of your birth children and those of your wife before your own and put this idea on the back burner for a very long time.

We have two adopted children and have been considering a third for years now. We are hesitant, because we are worried about risking our happy family life. There is no hurry, because we know that the bigger the age gap, the better.

Parenting an adopted child will be nothing like parenting a birth child. Your adopted child might be very aggressive towards you and your birth children, they might lie and steal from you, they might destroy things you and your children value, they might struggle with any change, they might find friendships and family relationships hard, they might struggle massively in school, they might not trust anyone or be overly friendly. I am talking about children without any diagnosis here, "just" trauma. I don't know of any adoptive family with a child over 8 who doesn't have any of these behaviours. You will have to parent this child very differently from yours (google "therapeutic parenting").

I love my children like crazy and they are wonderful. They are doing very well and if you met them you would think they are self-confident, happy and easy going, but my children still have major "quirks". Sally Donovan's books and Dan Hughes' "Building the Bonds of Attachment" will give you a realistic idea of life with traumatised children. Our family life is by far not as tough, but we have a lot of the same on a lower level.

I understand why you think offering a child a fresh start in a loving family would be great for all involved. However, it might feel very different for an adopted child who will have to find their place in your family. Attention will be a biggy. The new child will probably need as much attention as your other three together.

Forgive me for saying this, but that’s a mighty rose tinted view you have there! Please listen to your wife. Read and research yourself. Hectic doesn’t come close to describing life as an adoptive parent. Hectic would be fine - but there’s so much more to it. Bringing an adopted child into an established family will not be easy - particularly for the adopted child. I am assuming you want to adopt a child younger than your three? You say they’re young? Social services usually want a biggish age gap so I guess you’ll be wanting to adopt a baby or toddler? Younger does not mean easier btw ... just that their difficulties are yet to be diagnosed. And that may take years of therapy, Camhs, paeds etc. Not to mention special education, ehcps and all the ongoing battles that means.

Having three established siblings does not guarantee that child will flourish - and what do you mean by flourish? What will that look like to you? And bear in mind this adopted child may not consider those siblings to be a gift in any way. More like competition to be stamped on. Splitting? Do you know what that is?

I appreciate this might sound harsh but please do an awful lot more reading. Speak to other adopters. This is not Long Lost Families!

For starters read up on Fas/d, read Sally Donovan, Helen oakwater, sarah Naish, Bruce Perry, Bryan Post. Read up about drug and alcohol abuse on babies in utero. Alcohol particularly. Autism and adhd feature a lot. Epigenics. Even small babies come with their own genetic history, from chaos, from dysfunction.

And the 121? That won’t be your problem alone. That will be each of your children’s problem.

Thank you all for your frank and thorough comments I will read (just downloaded Building the Bonds...) and research. For right or wrong I feel like I am blessed to have a wonderful family and that we have something to offer an adopted child. I can see how this is very short sighted and I said from the outset I new to this, but these comments really are what I am looking for. Gives me somewhere to start.

I can only agree with what everyone else is saying. An adopted child is likely to feel the odd one out. Parenting an adopted child is SO very different from parenting a birth child. I have one birth child and 2 adopted children. I would never, ever have adopted if I could turn back time. It has been absolute hell. My birth child as suffered enormously. His safe and happy world changed beyond all recognition, having to deal with his younger siblings screaming for hours, being very violent, lying, stealing, destroying property, hurting the pets, self harm, running away, seeing his parents upset, having emergency services turn up constantly and the list goes on. If you do want to adopt, I would strongly suggest to wait until your children have grown up, or at the very least for there to be a very big age gap between your youngest and the adopted child. Teenage years can be particularly hard, and your birth children might need so much of your time and attention. How is that going to work when your adopted child is kicking off and diverting all attention away from them? In all honestly, I would be surprised if a panel would approve you with 3 young birth children. I'm sorry if this is probably not what you want to hear, but I just know you would set your family up for a lot of heartache, and it wouldn't be right for the adopted child either. You are asking the right people on here however, I hope you don't feel judged.

I think the thing is Browny, what you offer may not be what an adopted child wants or needs. I understand your intentions but I can pretty much guarantee - based on my experience - that an adopted isn’t going to feel grateful for what you can offer.

Think instead about what s/he will lose in the process of adoption. Years into our adoptions I did an AUK course - we had to list gains v losses, ie what we’d gained vs what our children had lost. It really resonated.

My three are all now teenagers. All babies when they came home, one hoping for Uni this year, two in special Ed with autism. Both high functioning and thriving. But, as they say, it’s been a journey. Two are completely happy and comfortable with being adopted. One really isn’t even though he understands the reasons. Three securely attached birth children v one who’s lost pretty much everything, and more than once, won’t be an easy mix. The teenage years are tricky even for birth children. Get those years out of the way first. Get school, exams etc done and dusted. Then come back to it

Good Morning,

We have 2 adopted children (now young adults) and a birth child Pip who is 11. I can categorically say parenting birth children without extensive repeated early trauma isn’t one bit like parenting an adopted child. Chalk and cheese.

The children that come through to adoption today are kids who come through the care system. They often have a long genetic heritage of dysfunctional family life. Like Donatella says- you don’t dodge the bullet if you adopt tiny ones, their trauma is still there, their bodies keep the score. Plus there is a huge amount of mental health disorders, personality disorders and conduct/ behavioural problems plus learning difficulties and disability in adopted children. It really isn’t like the maybe 12-18% chance of having a birth child with these needs. It’s over 60% with adopted children. Often adoptees have multiple needs that are non diagnosed and are all about developmental trauma. You really do need to read sally Donovan and on the internet bryan post and holly van gulden are really helpful.

we adopted a sibling group of 2. This was a big mistake. I have an adopted son who is 24. He was a quiet and compliant little boy. But it was all going on underneath. He actually had a lot of developmental trauma related needs. Stealing, lying, deviant and underhand behaviours, problems eating, inability to cope with change etc. then there’s my adopted daughter blossom. Aged 4 she’d have huge tantrums that would sometimes last from waking until sleeping. A good day- maybe 4/5 40 min tantrums. She was ‘just neglected’ but turned out to have multiple abusive experiences and was far more damaged than her older brother. They had a trauma bond. This is why sibling adoptions are a big problem. Blossom tried to kill the baby in my tummy when I became prg and after 3 serious incidents when little Pip was a baby, there was a huge fight with the local authorities and eventually blossom moved to a therapeutic community. When she moved my son began to attach and thrive aged 14. It broke my heart as she was 12 and we had tried so so hard. She remained a part of our family until she was 17.5 Blossom is now 22 and living a life of vice, very similar to her birth family life. We cannot see her any more because of her threat. My son Partridge, he’s doing ok in many ways. But at the core he’s still that timid little 6 yr old. He’s thin, lies a lot and has made appalling relationship choices. But he’s got a job, finished his education and is at heart a lovely lad.

When adopting you've got the numerous appointments with social care, doctors, CAMHS, schools, psychologists, psychiatrists, paeds, education etc.

Many people take the first year off work and are never able to go back. I didn’t take that first year and it’s been a problem actually.

But like many I have been not working for long periods and my husband had a breakdown due to the stress around adoption and went part time as a result. Initially the dr thought he’d had a stroke or developed epilepsy. But it was all adoption related stress. my physical illness has become much more severe and I cannot deny a fair amount of this is down to stress relating to our adoptees.

because of blossoms ongoing threat we moved house and didn’t say where we were following police advice. We do have sporadic police visits home because of the actions of our adoptees and latterly their birth family. This is horrible.

partridges birth family have been recently attempting to recruit him back to the fold (aka gang) by just turning up hundreds of miles from where they are based. three years on from their visit, they are posting all over social media for their ‘long lost brother’ with his full name and area. Funnily enough not mentioning the sexual abuse, torture, drugs and trafficking.

Social media has completely changed modern adoption. Read helen Oakwater about this

I really cannot say i would recommend it. But it is my life and I do love my son although my feelings are complicated for Blossom. If it had been the other way round and had a birth child first we wouldn’t have dreamed of putting her through any of this by choice,

I never dreamed when the children arrived in early 2000s I’d be sat writing this to you, still involved in adoption. I thought after a year they’d be settled and by en large normal kids. Nope! You are so lucky you can get wiser in advance

I do know of families both in real life, and on Twitter, who have added to their existing larger families of birth children via adoption. I have no personal experiences of that exact scenario, but from listening to these families, a few things spring to mind. Firstly, I'd think about the age gap between your youngest birth child and the child you may adopt. As a foster carer, I wasn't allowed to take children within a 2-year age gap of my adopted children and I think this was wise. Even two years was sometimes too little as some of my little fosterlings had significant needs and my adopted children close in age felt pushed aside which caused a lot of competition and challenging behaviour. So while it may be lovely for an adopted child to have several new siblings, be aware that these sibling relationships may sometimes be fraught and complex. Personally, from my fostering experience, I'd aim for a bigger age gap of, say three years plus. Adopting will have an impact on your existing birth children.

Secondly, it is realistic to assume that your adopted child will have a lot of appointments etc. In the beginning there will be introductions to handle, and your birth children won't be involved in all of that process, and then regular visits from social workers which can be unsettling. As your adopted child grows it may become clear that they have some additional needs - this is incredibly common - necessitating visits to paediatricians, therapeutic services providers, CAMHS etc. etc. All of this will have an impact on the other children. So make sure you are ready for that possibility and your support network is watertight.

Thirdly, as others have said, there is the parenting style. I have friends with birth children aged 12, 10 and 3, who have just adopted a 1 year old. They did their research in advance, and have altered their parenting style with the 3-year-old before they adopted so that they would be able to treat the two youngest the same, e.g. time-in over time-out.

I certainly don't want to put you off. As I said, I know of families who have made it work. Much will depend on the match, I think, and the social workers really understanding the needs of the child - I have fostered some children who really couldn't cope with the 'competition' presented by foster siblings at all, and definitely needed to be an only child. I think perhaps waiting until your birth children are older and more able to understand (and withstand!) the challenges an adopted children who has suffered loss and trauma might bring is something to consider as an option.

I just wanted to add that its not only young children who are affected - mine were teenagers and we adopted two toddlers. Whilst the eldest was very much seen as another adult - my daughter in particular was very jealous - and therefore rejecting of / hostile to my younger BD who was 14 at the time. I did not spend as much time with her as a teenager or when she was at university as I would have liked - however who knows how it would have worked otherwise. I do think they learn a lot though from adoption and are wiser more mature people themselves. However as some have said this can be so overwhelming that it seriously affects their lives and your relationships. (as well as potentially their safety) Thankfully mine never were there or knew about the worst that actually happened and perhaps that is the benefit of being older? I know there are people who have added to quite a young family in this way and it has worked out well - and usually respond to threads such as this. Two more things to think about - we adopted two and whilst it was harder they are not so much the odd one out in the family which I think is important and maybe more so with three birth children. Another thing is that the whole process takes quite a while so the age your children will be will be different when you are approved. Also it is very rare (though it does happen) to have a baby placed with you - a toddler is much more likely. Lots to think about - but remember even when you start the process it is about deciding whether it is right for you as much as whether you are approved or not - so you can make that decision at any point (prior to a child being placed obviously) Do as much research as you can along the way too.

Just wondered if you have considered being assessed to foster.

Thanks. No we haven't regarding fostering. If there was an option to foster a young child with possibility to adopt I would consider.

I am not after a new born as my preference would be for my youngest to be in school and then we adopt a child 2 probably 3 years younger. To me (no research just experience with 3 bcs) the closeness in age helps with the bonding. Of course as they age that will change but I would hope that the trust built as a foursome over time would pay dividends long term even if difficult from the outset. My kids compete for attention all the time and sometimes I feel they lose out on more 121 with mum and dad but then I see the time they spend together as a threesome and think that is also important.

Look I am all for research, and not discounting the health matters which play a huge part in all of this, but some of it in my humble opinion is about belonging and IF that child at a young age can genuinely feel that they belong with their siblings then despite difficulties as they age this hopefully helps.

We have time this is just the beginning and the research has begun.

Browny, the first thing you are going to have to accept is that adopted children are very different to birth children

Can I suggest that you start your research with the Adoption Wall, it is on the AUK website or just google it

I'm a bit puzzled why you have posted looking for information and experience so you are not going into this with a rose tinted view but are pretty much dismissing the experience of adopters who have been there.

Browny, respectfully, no it’s not all about belonging. Not sure what else to say but please forget any comparison to your birth children. It won’t be the same.

Actually you make an important point about your three as a threesome. A fourth may not be welcomed by your children and and adopted child may feel like an interloper, out of place. Not part of that threesome.

Keep reading. But please listen to what we’re all saying. We’re the experts!

Wish I could like Serrakunda xx

Serrakunda, Donatella and everyone else who posted, with sincerity thank you for your comments. I assure you I am not dismissing the experts simply wearing my heart on my sleeve and the feedback has been excellent.

From the outset I said I had my tints on and I know that the idea of a foursome is dreamy. We can all dream but equally we need to read and that message is loud and clear. The comments have been grounding, who knows if we went forward we may well not be accepted anyway. Time is on our side and I personally have only begun through this post and some calls.

There are a several reasons there needs to be a big age gap between the children. For a start the failure rate of adoptions with existing birth child is comparatively very high. So much so, a local adoption department locally simply do not place adopted children where there are birth children.

You'll need to focus totally on your Adoptees needs. You can’t do that if you have many other calls on you from children roughly the same age. They need to have gone on well past their total dependence on parental care.

Part of the reason you need a big gap is that your older children need to have the ability to talk through and get out the way of a very hurt child who may be spitting, screaming, taking their stuff, hurting them and or hurting you and your wife.

Bless you re bonding. What a nice idea. All children who have been adopted have lost absolutely everything, everyone and locations etc. This has happened at least once. Adapting to this would be a tall order for a well attached adult who understands. For a child it is catastrophic- even if removing the child saved their lives. Often the losses happen several times over. That primary attachment is very much damaged and this has a life long impact on children. This means they will struggle to attach. So they have no secure anchor.

The auk wall is really good at explaining. https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/AdoptionUK/the-wall-53186287

There’s a huge amount that’s different in adoption.

When I adopted I thought it was just another way of making a family. No one ever mentioned attachment let alone developmental trauma. Thankfully you don't have to find out the hard way anymore!

Thanks peartree, very kind

Hi Browny

There are some very good comments to your post and it is difficult and different with adopted children.

i do not have any birth children, but do have 2 adopted children. Our eldest is 7 and came to us at 12 months, he is fabulous and currently only suffers with trauma experienced in neo natal. Our ad came to us 5 months ago at the same age and undoubtedly she will experience this too. I know our children are very young and we are likely to experience lots of issues in the future but I would not change them for the world.

i understand it will be a tremendous upheaval on your family and you need to know this. You would need to be very open and honest with your social worker/s to make sure it works for you all.

It’s true that’s it’s not about them being the right child for you but you all being the right family for the child.

Adoption is hard work and comes with so much more. But to be able to give a child that has so many needs a loving and stable home is a lot, but more importantly able to nurture them through their life story etc.

I wish you all the best, it’s not all bad, it’s tiring but rewarding at times. Happy for you to message me directly.

x