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Sexism
Ford Prefect
February 7, 2018 11:58
There is a lot of talk in the media just now about sexual harassment and sexism in general. It is not always clear that sexism is a two way street and as a man we often get labelled as the aggressors and are guilty by association. I know this forum is a female dominated space so I thought it may by nice to hear reactions to the following and see if anyone is on the same page: Sexism. I go regularly to a coffee shop near the school on the way home after dropping off the children. On a normal weekday I am often the only man there, most of the others are mums who are also on the school run. As we don't live in London it is normal to have a chat with whoever is around. Over the years I have become chatty with a number of the other patents and we have a friendly little coffee shop group. Everyone knows I have children and everyone sees that I am the primary carer, most know my wife works and assumes that as I have time on my hands to be at a coffee shop I don't. When a new batch of mums come to the coffee shop at the start of the school year, we welcome them into the chatty atmosphere and the conversion soon turns to our circumstances. Without fail, every time a mum finds out I am a primary carer and my wife works, I am asked "How did you loose your job"? At first I didn't know how to respond to this, I usually blurted out, "I didn't loose my job, I gave up to look after the children". I'm then usually ignored by the newcomers because they don't seem to be able to process that. As time passes and they get some confidence with the group dynamic, I then tend to be the butt of comments like, "Isn't it time you got home and put your wife's dinner on" and on one occasion, "At least you wife is providing a male role model for the children". It's not just at the coffee shop. I use it as an example of what seems to be commonplace. Sexual Harassment. When I was working I spent a lot of time travelling, living in hotels all over the world. I wonder if many women know just how many times their husbands are propositioned for sex by women in business hotels. I've been groped, touched up, rubbed against, kissed without consent, given room keys, had drinks sent over for me, even had one woman get the porter to let her into my room and was waiting in bed. These weren't "Professionals" at this, they were just other business travellers or air crew. All could see I was wearing a wedding ring and that didn't seem to deter them. The word "No" never seemed to have any effect. I've been stalked, assaulted because I wouldn't sleep with someone, threatened, told I "Must be gay" (This seems to be a default reply to rejection of an advance from a woman to a man). With the publicity Hollywood has been gathering on the subject recently, I thought this might be of interest: I once attended a Hollywood wedding with my wife. It was an A List affair and the groom was a bit older than the bride. This meant that most of the men were Hollywood producers and directors and many of the women were at the start of their acting careers. I was family so have no connection to this world but look like many of the moguls. As the evening wore on I found myself being propositioned along these lines by many of the young, aspirational actresses. "I'll do anything to be in your next movie, and I mean anything". I would then feel a hand slip into my trouser pocket and a business card be deposited. As I said at the beginning, it is easy to make assumptions that this is a one way street, it isn't but there is no "Me too" for men.
safia
February 7, 2018 12:28
I agree entirely FP - and the reactions of the other parents in the coffee shop are appalling. I often think how little progress has in fact been made in the last 50 years - or more likely it is a spiral with the same issues having to be gone over again and again - much like equal pay and many aspects of racism. I think everyone - male or female - has to learn their own ways of dealing with these kinds of situations when they occur too - in an assertive and positive way to educate the people involved (hopefully). The thing that really annoys me - is that these issues - sexism and sexual harassment - are often confused in the media debate with sexual assault and rape - which is also an issue for men and boys not just women and girls - and there are many issues here which need to be addressed. The biggest one for me is the disadvantage that vulnerable young people - those who are vulnerable because of learning difficulties or from emotional or social issues - or those who are vulnerable because of the position of the perpetrator as a person in authority (worker in children's home / teacher / coach / priest) face - both in protecting themselves and in getting others to take their experiences seriously. Often others in authority are colluding - as in the Saville cases - perhaps because of the same power balance and also because if they are not sure it is no doubt easier to keep silent. Another big issue for me is juries and how they need to be helped to understand better the way vulnerable young people may react in situations where they themselves - as fairly well adjusted adults - would react entirely differently. I don't know any answers just know it is a problem. But I think the most important thing in all this is an open discussion and debate - so well done for raising it
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safia
February 7, 2018 12:30
Not saying the two issues aren't linked - they definitely are - just that they should not just be lightly placed together in one debate
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chestnuttree
February 7, 2018 12:56
I also find the behaviour you have encountered totally unacceptable and it would defininely call it sexism and sexual harrassment. The thing is that women have been fed up with discrimination for a long time. There is the feminist movement, which has undergone various stages and phases. Men have not yet come up with anything similar. Terms like "macho" or "softie" etc. are asigned to specific men from the outside. Few men would use them to describe themselves. I think that would be very helpful, also for boys, if men debated their rights and roles in modern society and formed some kind of movement.
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nancydanfan
February 7, 2018 13:17
Very interesting post. On the issue of sexual harassment I have a great deal of sympathy for men.Too many men are being portrayed as predators and I think we really need to re evaluate the figures. I dread to think how many innocent men are in prison for rape due to non disclosure issues with the police and an incompetent CPS. Whilst I accept rape does happen and when it does it should be severely punished the automatic belief of what a complainant says ( IMO they are not a victim until proven to be a victim) means any man or boy is under serious threat. When my children were young I had far more fears for my daughters but now I am far more worried for my sons. If a woman or girl decided to cry rape from an evil motive I would have no faith in the justice system. I've never described myself as a feminist and would be much more likely now to support a group fighting for men's rights. I was appalled hearing the old woman on the news labelling all men as control freaks. I think as a society we need to wake up to the threat of women of all ages who are able to be expert manipulators and who can put on a victim act without challenge or consequence. I am sorry Ford Prefect for the way women have treated you and sadly I doubt you are not alone in your experiences. There are the good and bad in both sexes and I would like to hear more about the pressures men face. They are in danger of becoming a marginalised group.
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daffin
February 7, 2018 14:00
I think it would be useful to separate out what I see as three separate issues here: Gender roles - and social norms around them Predatory sexual behaviour - and sexual assault Accusations of sexual assault - and evidence I think gender roles and the norms around them vary considerably by where you live. We live in rural SE England now and when we first moved there I made frequent jokes about the Stepford Wives I met and was horrified by the assumptions of many men that I met that I was stupid, financially dependent on my husband and that I CARED principally about housework etc. My husband went part time when we adopted our second child and has seen sexism from the other side - excluded from âmumsâ discussions at the various parent and toddler groups, school gate etc. Talked over or ignored by SWs and other professionals- who are really only ever interested in my opinion. Itâs tough out there for male Carers and if we want them to take on a bigger role we really need to actively include and appreciate them. Sexual predators and sexual assault - predation and assault is never OK. It is harder where there is also a power imbalance. This is more likely where one is a boss, older, physically stronger or - in a patriarchal society - male. Evidence is necessary when making accusations of assault. In rare cases, repeated accusations against the same person (eg Weinstein) builds an evidence base. Fewer than 8% of rapes end in convictions. Fewer than 0.4% of accusations are later found to be false. We are a long long way from men being an oppressed minority. But having a good hard look at gender roles and how both women and men are treated as groups and as individuals would be very healthy for us all.
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Ford Prefect
February 7, 2018 16:23
Iâm not suggesting that men are an oppressed minority, hardly! I was just trying to bring into focus that this is not a one way street. I noticed though that when I challenged the behaviour of some of the women mentioned in the Sexual Harrasment part, I usually was blamed by them in some way and they seemed to garner sympathy from other women around them. Often you would get a drunk friend of theirs lecturing me on how I had upset her so much because I had rejected her unwelcome advances. I canât help thinking if a man had done that to a woman he would be labelled a creep and it would probably have career and reputation ending consequences.
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pingu123
February 7, 2018 16:32
I wish I'd been in your coffee shop group. Ford Prefect I might have let the first joke through, not thinking hard enough, as my husband is the skilled cook here and enjoys it, but (as a women in the group) I'd have definitely challenged the work role comment on your behalf (and mine) Utter rubbish. As for hassle and attacks, Predators come in all shapes and sizes. But Power is still more often in the hands of men, and white men at that. So pay scales value what were traditional men's roles more and the "soft" judgements re pay and opportunities can be very difficult to nail down and prove as discrimination, as can any sexual pressure (though that one cuts both ways as you know FP ) Black people know the same difficulty of proving discrimination. But women can often be their own worst enemies, or their sisters worst enemies, and some do stuff that maybe shouldn't, when they get the chance, just like men. Interesting to read about the temptations men face in hotels , parties, etc. I suppose that post the "free love" era of "equal rights" and the days when marriage or even loyal monogomy is not always regarded as important, it was inevitable that some women would do what some men have always done when away from home !
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nancydanfan
February 7, 2018 16:43
I'm not suggesting men ARE an oppressed minority either, but I really think many are oppressed and if some of the feminists got their way I think they could even end up extinct ! We live in a culture where there is free speech providing you only express certain views. I would like to rephrase " fewer than 8% of rapes end in convictions ", to " fewer than 8% of alleged rapes end in convictions. " Fewer than 0.4 % of accusations are later found to be false " ? Maybe in time that percentage will greatly increase. The system is skewed towards believing the complainant over the defendant and chasing convictions rather than investigating impartially. Statistics often have a political motivation and I wonder about the motivation behind these two.
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chestnuttree
February 7, 2018 21:03
The system is hardly squewed in favour of the complainant if only 8% of the rapists are convicted. Unless you believe that 92% of alleged rape victims are lying and have made it all up... Even if 50% made it all up (which I don't think), there would be a huge number of rapists who were injustly not convicted. The system follows "in dubio pro reo" and since it is usually his word against her word, many rapists walk free. I think the media overreport on false accusations, which makes it seem as if it was more common than actual rape. I believe that men experience discrimination too, but women have borne the brunt of it (votes, work opportunities and salaries, harrassment, etc.).
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Sparkle Motion
February 7, 2018 21:19
Thanks Chesnuttree for saying what I wanted to say without me knowing where to start!
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Ford Prefect
March 1, 2018 04:12
I agree with you Chestnuttree, the balance of sexism is certainly skewed towards women. I hope that as time passes the situation will redress. I look back to the attitudes in the 70âs and 80âs and can see many improvements in that time. Perhaps in another 5o years this discussion will be moot. Itâs been a little while since I started this thread and I have a couple of new examples to share: Back in the coffee shop still the only man there, had one of the mums I hardly know come in from the school run, kicked the snow off her wellies, said Hi to everyone, ordered her coffee and came over and sat on my lap, put her arm round me and said, âMmmm Youâre nice and warmâ, I kid you not. The assembled crowd thought this was hilarious. I was very embarrassed. Experience has taught me to just go with the flow in these situations as somehow you are seen as an aggressor if you object. She got up after about a minute when her coffee arrived and I made my excuses and left. During half term I was shopping with my daughter (9) and my Niece (15 but looks about 25). My daughter adores her cousin and they often walk hand in hand when out and about together. In the shopping centre I had fallen a little behind them as I had stopped to go to a cash machine and my daughter kept looking back over her shoulder to see me catching up , when she looked around Iâd give her a little smile in acknowledgment. Just a few feet behind but still out of earshot, a woman walked up to my niece and said something, my niece said something to her and she walked off. I quickened my pace and caught up. The conversation had been this: Woman- âThat man is following your daughter, be carefulâ. My Niece- âThatâs her dadâ Woman- âJust be carefulâ My niece was somewhat confused by this but my daughter spotted immediately that the woman thought my niece was her mum and I was a pervert. Which she announced to the whole shopping centre in a loud voice. I wonder though if a similar assumption would be made if an older woman had smiled at a little girl walking with her mum (assumed) ? I must admit I spent the rest of the day feeling like I was giving the impression I was a pervert, not very nice.
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Sparkle Motion
March 1, 2018 07:50
The gender stereotypes of men and women trap men as well as women. I'm just not sure the perspective of some women can behave badly to men (just like some men can behave badly to women) is helpful in understanding sexism. It's institutionalised and the power imbalance gives men the power (in history and in the here and now). There was no such thing as a wife being able to pursue rape in marriage until the 90's as a man could do what he wanted with his property etc etc. In a recent discussion with 7 female friends we discovered 4 of us had experienced a sexual assault. As a woman who was assaulted at 15 I am conscious of my personal safety in a way that my male friends are not. My friend at 15 who did report was told as a pretty girl she should accept it. In society generally, with all the 'me too' coverage, I think the media portrayal is very much the view that men are being demonised / it's a bad time to be a man etc. It's missing the point that sexism and rape culture is part of the fabric of society, not just how a bit of flirting is blown out of proportion..
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chestnuttree
March 1, 2018 11:58
I agree Sparkle Motion. Ford Perfect, that woman was protective towards your daughter. I have been followed, groped, flashed, someone tried to force me to kiss in a lonely street and so on and so forth. All by strangers. Some of it happened when I was as young as 14. The danger is real. All the young women I know live after a so called "rape schedule", meaning every day in pretty much any situation they think about if there is any danger of rape and how they can minimise that danger. When they walk home alone, they listen to footsteps behind them, will have their keys in their hand as a weapon to defend themselves if necessary, they will know where the next open shop is to get help if needed, etc. It might sound over the top, but it is just being realistic - and it will be your daughter's reality. I know 10 women who have been raped. None of them were raped by an older woman.
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Ford Prefect
March 1, 2018 19:44
Ah yes, the "All men are potential rapists" track. I'm sorry you have had to endure those things, no one should. But all men are not potential rapists, the rapists are not the normal man in the street. I don't know anyone who has been raped, woman or man. I don't know anyone who has been accused of rape. My daughter won't have to live in fear like that as I think the publicity the me too and more serious allegations have highlighted are starting to turn societal thinking on the subject. I'm sure it would be very difficult for that woman to rape my daughter, she could of course rob her, try to sell her drugs, stab her, abduct her or any manner of other things. Why would I not be concerned about either a man or woman approaching two young girls under my care. I maintain that if a man had approached a woman to tell her that her daughter was being followed, the assumptions would be very different.
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Ford Prefect
March 1, 2018 19:54
Sorry if the above sounds harsh it is not meant to. Maybe I just donât know women, if what you say is your daily life then I certainly donât know men.
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safia
March 1, 2018 19:59
I donât think anyone is saying all men are potential rapists - clearly that is not the case - but there are some - not just rapists but muggers etc - and when you are out - particularly as a woman you are very aware of who is around / following you / hanging around in a group ahead of you - and have to take precautions - I think young men would be well advised to do the same as they are very vulnerable to mugging and knife crime in particular
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Ford Prefect
March 1, 2018 20:04
What a sad, sick society we all live in. Whose fault is it then?
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Serrakunda
March 1, 2018 20:24
I certainly don't think all men are potential rapists. But I do think most men have no idea what women expereience on a day to day basis. I have not been sexually assualted, I don't personally know anyone who has been raped. But as a short, round, and 'plain' but busty woman I have lost count of the times men, and quite often groups of men, have felt it necessary to shout abuse at me for the mere fact of leaving my home and walking down the street and failing to be a six foot blonde raving beauty. I can tell you that I have been approached twice this week by random men in the street who thought fit to comment on my appearance. I can't say that I felt in danger, but it is intimidating behaviour. As others have said, I am very aware of who is around me, particularly at night. I take care to stick to well lit, busy streets, I know where the dark places are, I know in which direction if would be quicker to run, and I always wear shoes I can run in.
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Ford Prefect
March 1, 2018 20:28
I think most people on their own, men or women, would feel that way if they heard footsteps at night in a quiet part of town.
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