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Thought I would start a new discussion having adding something to Abbie''s thread on the adopters section about whither or not our children can choose to change their behaviour.I feel that this is a fundemental thing that all adoptive parents and all professionals who deal with our children need to get their heads round - see shadow''s on going problems.Things began to click into place better in our house when we realised that our children weren''t ''just attention seaking'' won''t ''just be told'' weren''t ''just plain naughty'' and had real problems managing their anger, inpulsivity, assesment of danger,affection,and any other behaviour you care to name.They had never learnt how to do any of the above and had missed loads of their very early bonding.So many of us go through loads of angest, my DH in particular would say things like ''they have to learn'' ''they have to be told'' or I''m not putting up with this'' to justify his bull in a china shop approach. Which of course decreased the bond we were trying to build with the children and considerably lengthened the time it took to get to the stage we are now at. The thing that changed my DH was really when we meet other parents with children with similar problems at a possitive parenting group. Also speaking to another parent he meet during his work with grown children with similar problems - he never believed me!!The sooner every one realises that sticker charts and most other incentive based systems of behaviour improvement don''t work long term for our children with a caotic start in life the better. Our children screamed and fought with us at every level - that is what they had learnt to do, it was all they knew.They didn''t do as they were told - they had never had to - and had no respect for us.DS broke every toy he was given as he thought he wasn''t worthy of them.We had to change the way we lived - we ignored any damage - walls, chairs, lamp shades where favs. We stopped going to places that might be problematic or keeping time short and decided to choose our battles in order to fight the war.We had to change OUR behaviour in order that the children started to change - that was the key.As Garden has said in a previous thread we have had to ajust our expectations, our children are not ''cured'' but there is loads to be proud of and live is definately easier at the moment ( not at teens stage yet though). This is getting a bit long now so I will stop for now and hopefully someone else with have some ideas or comments too.