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Dear TeaandToast I'm very sorry to hear this. I do have personal experience but am about to go out to take my AD's old dog to the vet. Will reply later. Lily x

t&t (((((())))))) gentle hugs coming your way. with two of my three the decision was made for us as their bail conditions said that they could have no contact with us for our safety. SS will do all they can to keep him with you or with a family member, you must reiterate the long term damage being done to your other children, reiterate your concerns for their safety. they should carry out an risk assessment, be clear on what you want and why you want it. Will you have someone with you at this meeting, try to get as much written down about his behaviours and the effects it is having on family. so sorry to hear yet another family going through a crisis with teens.

If this is what you have to do you need to be very clear that he is not able to stay tonight, you are making him homeless. Phone SS and and also email them and their bosses so it is also down in writing. Sadly it's going to be tough and you may well be guilt tripped. When I put my daughter under a section 20 when I was told there were no foster placements for 16 year olds( for 10 days before she went in to care) but she was completely off the rails and putting herself at risk so going into care was the lesser of the two evils. In our case we didn't let daughter know what we were going to do, sent her off to school and hubby made the calls to SS as I felt so dreadful I couldn't do it. We told them she couldn't come back home so they collected her from school brought her back to collect her bag and took her to their offices. I made an inventory of everything we sent with her and anything extra that she took. Our genuine hope at the time was that section 20 would be temporary and we could be reconciled. I wrote a letter to daughter expressing this and that we loved her, kept a copy for myself, gave her a copy and gave the SW a copy. He looked at me as if we were barking mad but we had no trust in SS, no trust in daughter and realised we had to be very focal in presenting ourselves as the parents we are. Daughter was shell shocked but went calmly. It sounds awful but the relief in the hour after daughter had gone was palpable. There were a nervous four hours before we got the call to say she was with foster carers who wer experienced with teenagers. The days and months afterwards were very tough as daughter decided she was only interested in getting her Christmas presents, wouldn't engage in mediation, made false allegations which were taken seriously, and banned us from reviews. SS never engaged with us but wrote inaccurate reports on us. The senior SW actually said " we do not have time to listen to you" . Basically they just listened to daughter, who is a compulsive liar and thief . Sadly I believe daughter has shot herself in the foot as their assessments that we as parents are the problem means she hasn't got the expert therapy she desperately needs. If you need something from the doctor to help you sleep, get it. Get as much emotional support for yourself as you can. The guilt and condemnation your own mind puts on you can be a killer without the stress of interaction with SS. If you want to pm me please feel free, it's a very tough road to travel

Dear T&T, Also have experience of this AS went back into care at 15. Was a very long and hard road, months of fighting with SS. In the end the volume of Police reports (they were called to my house pretty much every night for about 2 months) still weren’t enough for SS to remove him, on the other hand Police were very concerned and had an "immediate response" flag on my phone number. In the end I was living on my own (both husband and daughter had to live elsewhere) and I just locked the door one day and refused to have him back, the guilt was enormous but I stood my ground. SS started muttering about “abandonment” but in the end it came to nothing and months later after various court proceedings he was no longer “allowed” to return home. We are a few years on now and I feel like I am still licking my wounds at times but home life really is lovely and so different from what we had been going through, we have all re-built our relationships and in some ways value them more after nearly losing everything. My heart goes out to you and your family

I would not even suggest to SS that you might hurt him- they would be after your blood !

I'm with Nancy - suggesting you might hurt him would lead you down the Child Protection route and could result in all your children being removed. I would emphasise the risk to the younger children from him - and make sure you show you are doing all you can to protect them. If he is violent, call the police as that is further evidence to back up the need for change.

TeaandToast, we know that this is decision that you are taking with a heavy heart. Only you know what you have been through and what needs to be done to protect everyone, including him Be gentle with yourself

Many thanks for your valuable comments. I am trying to write down all the impact on my younger children but as many of you will know, everyone in the house normalises the behaviour and we have just got on with it. If anyone has any ideas on how to articulate these things I would be grateful. Its all much the same as most adopters experience - aggression, swearing, stealing, lying etc etc. There are reams of police, school and post adoption support notes about what has gone on but I still feel I am going to be looking at a massive fight with SS. He doesn't attend school or college at present so no respite in the day either. I would never suggest I was going to hurt him - I love this boy, I want him to be part of the family but sadly I don't think he wants to be other than as a roof over his head. I had a chat with him today and I have spoken about us taking some space from each other and looking at therapies that we could work on whilst having that space but he isnt interested in any more therapy. He has ADHD but refuses to take medication. I am exhausted, I feel beaten. I honestly don't know what I could do to help him anymore.

Hello TeaandToast Your best hope is to emphasise the safeguarding issues with regard to your younger children. Record all aggressive and violent outbursts. The police can help you a lot by visiting, speaking to your son regarding his behaviour, and passing on concerns and demanding action from social services. I found the police most helpful when I was awaiting a residential school placement for my AD when she was 14 and had been excluded from school. She was an alcoholic, abused solvents and shoplifted at the time. Make sure you keep pressure on social services by informing them of every serious incident. That includes the out of hours team. I remember phoning EDT and just letting them listen to her on the phone while she ranted and raged. Sadly I had to put my AS into care when he was nearly 16. (Both my adopted children had been diagnosed with ADHD too. My AS was not taking the medication either.) I had been struggling for a long time and was exhausted. He truanted from school, lied, stole, caused damage and had burgled the house. One day he menaced me in the car with a cigarette lighter and, when he refused to give it to me, I took him to the social work department and said he could not return home with me. I was a single parent and I was not prepared to allow him to menace me in the house. He went to foster care. I was annoyed that he was categorised as having been abandoned when it was his menacing behaviour that precipitated him going into care. Unfortunately on account of his behaviour all his placements broke down and he eventually ended up in a homeless hostel. My AD is now 31 and my AS is 32. Life has been a roller coaster for them both. And for me. I am sad that I had to take the decisions that I took but I have never regretted them. I believe I had no choice and my conscience is clear. You are going to have to be persistent and strong. In my case I could not personally take any more. You have younger children to consider. Wishing you well. Lily x

I’m very sad to hear that, Tea and Toast, but understand completely. SS will not want to take him away but I think you’ll have to be very forceful in saying that he has to leave and not have it turned into a long round of meetings. I don’t normally criticise other posters openly on here, but I have to say, Pluto, that suggesting she tells SS that she will hurt her son is the most irresponsible and stupid thing I’ve heard. They’d have her arrested if she suggested that! .

Hi tea and toast. I'm ever so sorry to read you've got to this position. MyAC are now young adults. But when blossom was 12 we had to make the same awful choice. She was so violent and increasingly disturbed and I realised the next time we could well be talking about a child's death or serious injury. I just couldn't do that. So blossom moved to live with my parents in the very short term. Crisis meeting offered no placements and we told them she needed a therapeutic community. We were laughed at. Then told she needed a 3:1 level 5 fc situation at least. Which made me choke as they expected me to manage for years with no support and mostly at our house the ratio was the other way around. But there followed a placement support meeting where CAMHS and our excellent gp presented reports saying blossom needed a THerapeutic community It took a few months to organise We visited several and wrote reports Then social care refused to meet with health to agree it, until the mp got involved and then,funnily enough, meetings were held, money agreed We held out within the family until her move, but she could not come home. We continued to visit and be very involved in her life until she was 17 - having fallen though a number of placements and then ss decided she should go back to her 'real family' (which is another story) Her moving was heartbreaking but aIt enabled our other children to move on in life, make some connections and have a life not governed by total fear.

I see it more as a desperate attempt to show ss how bad the situation is, I wrote might not will. When I read what the hunderd steps are for adopters to be taken seriously I think that's quite bad. Maybe I should have written 'in self defense' as I pressume he might be very agressive at times. I do not think anyone will be arrested, it's just how you bring it. Nothing wrong with letting them know that you too as adopter are very stressed by the situation, and that he's challenging to the point that you might not be fully in controle of unpredictable situations, as again I pressume there are plenty.

Pluto - I know of an adopter who was arrested after her daughter made allegations that she had hit her....that part did all get sorted out in the end, but she also nearly lost herr son at that point and I could never recommend anyone to "choose" that route, as once you are viewed as a perpetrator, you are disbelieved on everything and even now her opinions around the best option for her daughter are ignored. It is fair to say that when she asked for her daughter to be accommodated there was "no space" but a place was found very quickly once they thought the daughter was at risk after making allegations against her Mum, so in that sense it does move things forward, but I think the cost is too high, especially if there are other children involved.

They came. They offered no real solutions except family therapy. Said they don't do respite. Shes gonna do her report. I just don't know what to think.

You need to keep pushing.....keep a diary, video incidents if possible to do so safely, look after yourselves....sadly accommodating a child is expensive so its very much a last resort, so keep pushing the short and long term impact on the younger children....

If you don't want your son in your house it does boil down to telling them he is not able to stay there. You have to be that clear and direct with them, I know it feels awful to do but if you are sure you need to give them the ultimatum. It is surprising how foster carers suddenly appear when SS decide they need them.

I have know parents who have warned school they won't be coming to collect their child. Then ss are called and an emergency placement is found. It would've nice if simply by making requests ss acted and found a placement, with our dd it was awfully tough

Again the ss mutter about charging parents with abandonment but I've never know a parent charged let alone prosecuted in these circumstances.

I am going to keep a diary so that I have a record of incidents. Its more stressful when SS become involved then when you do things on your own. It felt today that she was trying to put the blame over onto us when she talked about the family dynamic. There are no real problems with my other children and a catalogue of issues around my eldest and yet somehow this is my fault? Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but it felt that way. She also said that she needs to make sure the children are safe and I felt like I was being put under some kind of scrutiny. Maybe I am imagining it but it felt like she was looking at us as me v the kids rather than us as a family. She also asked me to sign a consent form - whilst I was crying so not in a good state - which she said was in relation to gathering information. I am now worried as to what I am agreeing to. She gave me a leaflet but its not particularly clear. I have emailed her and asked her to clarify and send me a copy.