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Advice needed!
Paquita
August 15, 2018 20:39
Hello adopters, I´m writing to pick everybody´s brains about the situation our family currently finds itself in. Our two boys (aged 2 and 4) have been with us for 10 months. The placement has been incredibly challenging from the outset, in large part due to the older child´s aggressive behaviour towards the younger one. Also lots of extreme violence towards us and in the nursery setting. We parent therapeutically as far as we can and we understand the older child´s aggressive behaviour as being driven by fear and anxiety. We have been through a few short periods of relative stability, but in general we have been fighting fires and trying to get through the day for 10 months. Despite this, both children have developing attachments to us. However, we are in crisis because the level of hostility between the children has increased enormously over the last couple of months (mainly because the younger child now fights back and sometimes initiates violence). Their relationship has always been conflictive (they clearly have a trauma bond and only interact negatively) but now they appear driven to harm each other constantly, and also dysregulate each other to the point where they both become hysterical and violent towards each other and us. Even when there are two adults in the room, the only solution is to separate them from one another physically and take them to different rooms, a situation which obviously isn´t sustainable. They also go to the same nursery where they are in different age groups but attack each other whenever they encounter each other. Social workers suggested separating them and taking the older child back into care as they never carried out a proper sibling assessment on them and fully admit that they should not have been placed together. Then they changed their minds and asked us to wait to see what conclusions come out of an upcoming multidisciplinary assessment. It´s all a nightmare as we really do love both of the children, but fear that they are doing â and will continue to do - massive harm to each other. So I suppose what I´d like to ask is: a) Has anybody ever managed to stabilise a sibling placement characterised by constant animosity, violence and hostility to the point where some sort of family life (i.e. all family members being able to be in the same car and room on a regular basis) was able to take place, and the point to which they did not feel that the children were being harmed from living together? b) Is there any support or therapy which might help us to save the family? c) Has anybody ever been through a disruption with one sibling, and was it â despite being terrible â actually in everyone´s best interests? Please be kind and don´t judge us as we really don´t want to be in this situation and are working so hard to make it work! Thank you! Paquita
Haven
August 15, 2018 21:52
I don't have experience, but I wanted to say to you that I think you have been given such a difficult situation to deal with and it sounds like you are doing a blooming marvellous job. I don't think anyone could be judgemental towards you! I hope that you can get the support you need to take you on to the multidisciplinary assessment and that something useful comes from it. Also that someone here can help you with advice about therapy. I can't imagine how you must feel about the prospect of disrupting one - what an awful decision! I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. I often separated our kids when they first came to us and put them in their rooms until they calmed down when they dysregulated each other beyond a certain point (at ages 4 -6 and 9 - 11, maybe even older). I think it was the right thing to do. There was always a coming together afterwards and a bit of reflection. The advantage we had was that they were slightly older, with more of a capacity to do this. It's a much tougher job with younger kids. Best of luck ad let us know how things go. xx
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safia
August 15, 2018 22:27
It must be so very very difficult and such a struggle every day - itâs relentless - it sounds like youâre really doing so well considering! Mine were nothing like so challenging as your but they did have a very dicey relationship. Iâm afraid it is keeping them apart as much as possible - but very hard when youâre on your own! Are they better if youâre out doing something - particular physical activities? Is there anything you could get the elder one into for a few hours from time to time - sports club or holiday club? They need a focus for their energy and a chance to wear themselves out. Also to do something that they enjoy and makes them feel good about themselves. I hope the multidisciplinary assessment helps. There may be things going on other than adoption / emotional needs which you could get help for. As for therapy Iâve no experience of therapy at that age but there seem to be a lot of good things about NVR - which is something for you to help you deal with the violence.
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safia
August 15, 2018 22:31
Meant to say too that they are both at very challenging ages - boys get a surge of testosterone around 4 years old which can make even the most amenable boy quite difficult - and of course the typical two year old behaviours are well known! Can your LA offer any practical support to you - someone to come in for a couple of hours a day to play with one of the kids or do some housework? Or some money which you can choose how best to use? Counselling too? Think of anything that could possible help and ask for it
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Larsti
August 15, 2018 22:42
I don't have any experience either but from what ( and who) I know I would say that it is highly unusual for SWs to suggest splitting up children after they've been placed for adoption. You say they've changed their minds about that now. In your shoes I would get legal advice and insist that the children are split up. It seems unbelievable that they didnt do a sibling assessment. Our son had a sibling assessment done and that was only to determine if direct contact between sibs was advisable. It seems from what you say that neither child is safe being together and the situation sounds intolerable for all of you. Please take the way out that has been offered ( well offered and retracted again as things stand at the moment). Of course we don't know if the younger child will manage in a family. Perhaps they are both too damaged? Hopefully someone will be along with experience soon. I do know adopters who were put in an impossible position and reading your post reminded me a little of them. Xx
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freddie2
August 15, 2018 22:50
I donât have any words of wisdom, but wanted to send you my support. You sound like you are doing your very best in very difficult circumstances. I feel for you. I have two children and I do recall things being very tricky when youngest was 2/3 and oldest was 6/7. My oldest was always intensely jealous of the youngest and things got worse when the youngest got a bit older and started to take an interest in playing with my oldestâs toys. My oldest couldnât handle that and would lash out and my youngest ( who is generally much more chilled) started to retaliate. I can recall pulling my hair out as it was so hard to manage them together. The one thing which kept me sane was going out and about every day. They seemed to behave better out and about. At home I had to separate and rely a lot on devices so,I could play with them individually. I also got to know a local lady who was great with kids and she became a motherâs help for us. She would come and help me for about 10 hours per week when my husband was working. She was such a help and has become like a gran to them. Around this time too, my ad was diagnosed with severe adhd. We started medication and that helped as it helped her control her impulsives a bit better and generally be calmer and more settled in her play. I do hope you find a way forward xx
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pingu123
August 15, 2018 23:27
It does sound as if contact between them is triggering some sort of fight for survival instinct. Maybe vague memories / pre verbal in the older one , of times with birth family. Did the baby get fed but not him at times? Who knows. Whether some sort of therapy is possible needs established. Maybe worth ringing someone like Family Futures and ask if this type of situation is helpable by therapy or not. Then you might better know where you are. Also, is two different nurseries possible? Ideally at different times so that you can have quality time with each child, without the other being there. Plus they won't meet accidentally.
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Lettice
August 16, 2018 10:51
Iâm from a different family setup, different ages, different genders, but similar in the sense of a harmful sibling pattern and sw changing their minds like gloves. Our sw separated the siblings in foster care, recombined them for adoption and then were back a few months later saying they should never have been placed together. I think itâs worth recognising that sw are used to moving children around in foster care, they sometimes bring that mindset to adoptive families too. I honestly wouldnât look to social workers for the best judgement here. The dynamic between siblings is so deep rooted. Maybe there are layers that you can peel off, there are certainly some common ones in adoption that are worth considering and exploring such as the competition for survival as mentioned above. Or projecting anger towards birth family onto the (only) available reminder of it. Or one sibling blaming another for the birth family breakdown â itâs easy and well-known for adoptive children to blame themself, but even easier to scapegoat a sibling, especially a younger one. Or simply triggering because they can get under the skin. Or acting out and re-playing dynamics they have witnessed in pre-verbal childhood. Itâs a very difficult call. Your children have already suffered harm and further difficulties are in store whichever route you take. In answer to your questions, my children are older now and have left home, but yes, very slowly and year by year we are moving towards a) as perspectives change. (The underlying dynamic is still there, but its impact is manageable now. Thereâs a legacy though.) b) whatever support that will allow you lots of individual time with each individual child, different schools, different activities, different friendship groups, different holidays as they get older. Life story work if the blaming and projection aspects might be involved. Safe-place type therapies for acting out pre-verbal trauma. There are lots of holistic, broadbrush therapies too. c) yes, there are a couple of families that post regularly here, Iâm sure they will be along to share any reflections that might helpâ¦
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Flosskirk
August 16, 2018 15:25
Hi I suggest you try to speak to Family Futures and see what they suggest as they are good on sibling groups. I have 2 girls and had to separate them - different schools, noxattending the same clubs etc. They are now 19 and 20 and still can't sit in the back of the car together. I doubt there will be an easy way to make this work, sorry xxx
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Ford Prefect
August 17, 2018 08:38
Sorry to hear your situation. Unfortunately it is quite common. Can I ask if your children have other siblings? Our two have an older (2years) brother who lives in a childrenâs home. He and my daughter were originally up for adoption together and were close. That all fell apart around the time my son came along and my son and daughter were then adopted together. My daughter resents my son for, in her subconscious, taking her big brother away and has focussed that anger on him ever since. They have been with us for three years and it is only recently we have been able to leave them together for more than five minutes without one or both coming to find us in a distressed state. Our normal is for one child to be with us while the other plays somewhere else, swapping over but never together. The back of the car is characterised by electronic mind numbing from iPads and video screens with headsets. Otherwise one of us needs to sit between them. We have a direct contact with the older sibling this weekend so Iâm expecting next week to be world war three and the usual provocative shout of, âWhy didnât you adopt him instead of DSâ? Unfortunately âWe didnât have a choiceâ, isnât a response that satisfies her or indeed my DS so we have a weekâs worth of calming strategies to bring her back down. The backlash will be for her to spend the following week smothering her brother with love to try to ensure she doesnât loose another brother but it soon wears off and we are back to the incessant battle. Itâs hard to imagine siblings being separated all the time but it is a strategy that works.
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belle de fontenay
August 18, 2018 04:59
We have two who were placed at similar ages. The older one could be violent to the younger one (and still can be) it was never incessant. I think the family futures recommendation is good. And if they do recommend separating them don't feel guilty. Years ago someone on here said a placement had to fail before social services would consider the more expensive therapeutic options. Even now I wonder if it was the best thing to place them together. Best wishes, BdF
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belle de fontenay
August 18, 2018 17:06
Some other things to think about...have you talked to the children's guardian? (I may have the wrong word...the person who has legal responsibility to see to the children's best interest...the name will be in the legal paperwork). They aren't a social worker and can advocate for the children, i.e. say a sibling assessment is needed. Also, have you filed for the AO? If the LA start to talk about taking both you can file the paperwork on one or both and then a judge is involved. BdF
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Agape
August 19, 2018 02:00
Paquita, Without sounding arrogant, I think I know what you are going through. We had similar behaviours: trauma bond, triggering each other, sensory problems, attachment difficulties, to name a few. Their fear is huge and they donât know how to handle it. Itâs very hard and tiring but with the right intervention their relationship will improve. Yes, separation works i.e. different nurseries, maybe schools, activities, etc. but you need professional specialist input. Contact PAC-UK (they offer advice over the phone). Try to go on their courses (mainly the ones about the aggressive child) and meet their therapists. Speak to your social worker about funding (Adoption Support Fund). Look after yourself. You are on a long journey but you are not on your own. In short, mine now play together!!!! Love and prayers
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