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Well he is my take - adopted Miss x when she was seven years old. Taken from birth mum aged three because of massive abuse and neglect, locked in a room not fed etc etc etc. birth parents certainly not middle class but no special needs either - they had a choice! Also important to note that I did not adopt a child to fill my childlessness! (Not that there is anything wrong with that! If you believe in God you will believe that people are childless to care for children that need homes, if you don't you may believe in social conscience to look after the vulnerable - I could go on) I am one of the fortunate ones, I have a birth child, I adopted because I met one of the saddest little girls I have ever seen my whole life and thought I could make a difference! Anyway, back to contact - Miss X came with letterbox and direct contact with siblings. Why I ask myself! This is our experience - direct with siblings has caused my daughter to have to move school - older sibling there, caused problems. Older sibling constantly tells her I am not her mum so she doesn't have to do what I say - every time they are all together it reminded them of their loss and opens old wounds. Letterbox, never regular left her wondering every year whether they would write this year or not - those people that abused and neglected her. It also hindered her sense of permenance, if they are her family, what am I - can they come and take her away whenever they want - she asked! As for Facebook! She is now 16 and contacted on a regular basis through Facebook, mainly because of her direct contact with birth sibling, which has also hindered her relationship wi No. 1 son, she has her siblings, they don't recognise him, wonder how that makes him feel? Know how it makes me feel, but is he important - yes, he was given no choice in sharing the mum he had to himself for ten years! Birth uncle recently told me, on Facebook that birth family have the higher power and that blood is thicker than water - appears some of you believe that to. Given my time over, no contact - clean break. I am happy to acknowledge and discuss birth family but believe contact should be when the children are adult. Sorry for the rant and probable incoherence in place, Friday wine taking hold.

Donatella my remark was not tactless, at least it wasn't meant to be. The fact is that a service for couples used to be what adoption was about. Thankfully it changed and is now all about what is best for the child. And yes one size does not fit all, my point exactly. It should be about what is best for that particular child. You can't erase a child's past and helping that child to come to terms with their past, present and future is our job as adoptive parents, regardless of their age at placement. I didn't mean to offend and I'm sorry if I did but I feel very strongly that a link (however small) needs to be kept with the birth family for the child's sake. No matter what these children have been through they never asked to be taken from their birth families. Adoptive parents that don't recognise this and try and help their children with their past are only storing up trouble for the future.

I appreciate what you say about going on holiday with birth mother Garden and that potentially that may benefit an adoption in a very idealistic world. But what if you went on holiday to see the birth mother and she didn't turn up, or she turned up 3 months too late, or she just did half of the holiday 6 months too late, and then the next time you booked a holiday it was for 6 years time because she couldn't manage the last 6 years because of having other more pressing things to deal with like having a few more birth children, drugs and a violent relationship, however then to make up for that they wanted 3 holidays in a year. This is the kind of letter box we experience in comparison with the holiday experience, it is impossible to predict what might pop up when, it is fully based on what BP's are capable of at the time and when they feel like it, and I think that this kind of restriction might allow for that chaos not to keep seeping into the adoptive home. I am not being critical of birth family at all and I fully appreciate why it is as it is, but children are adopted so they can forge a new and fulfilling life for themselves and the question is does contact cause harm to that growth and development??However the flip side of the corn is that this kind of letterbox illustrates without any other information why a child had to be adopted. It is all very sad, but I refute the argument that any adoptive parent who is skeptical of the benefit of letterbox or contact is only in adoption for their own gains, absolutely not. I speak for myself but are fully in it for my children and that there is no easy answer and it's about finding out the very best way forward to make sure that these children, grow up with the best way forward for them and that if letterbox is not supportive or chaotic who is it benefiting? At this very moment in time our letterbox is only there for our birth parents benefit, when they feel like it.

bt in an ideal world the previous family wouldn't exist and believe me my thoughts on my daughters BF are not printable on any forum. She also now has access to facebook and her siblings and this frightens me to death, more so as she no longer lives with me and is with my ex who never wanted her abd lets her do what she wants. But their can never be a clean break. We take on these children knowing their past and it is our job to deal with it, and help them through, otherwise we shouldn't have adopted.

i'm sorry nickym but the comment you made about childless couples was tactless. obviously you've never been 'childless' and have no idea of the pain and hurt that causes those of us that weren't 'lucky' enough to have a birth child.but MY adopted daughter is MY daughter. and i am helping her deal with her past day in day out - it's called being her mum. i do lb but as my daughter is only young she isnt involved as yet. when she;s older it will be her decision if we carry on or not. at the moment the woman who gave birth to her is responding well to lb and the letters are appropriate - but the minute they're not.. it's over.. she is MY daughter - i'm not babysitting her. we as adppters are the parents now not the birth family. and it is up to us to protect our children and if lb or direct contact or any such thing is detremental to our children then it is up to us to stop it.

No, but equally they never asked to be born into these dysfunctional families. I am aware that adoption wouldn't be the first choice. In an ideal world all children would be born to parents who could take good enough care of them. Sadly none of mine were. Two of mine are sibs, placed years apart. Middly has different bps. All bps, in their way, dysfunctional. All in their way simply not up to the task of basic parenting, despite years of social work input. My children know their history, middly has had therapeutic lifestory work. He doesn't want contact of any sort. His decision, not mine. And my job is to support him, not pander to the wishes of SS and/or birth family. Frankly I don't really care about bps, I do, however, care very much about my children and doing the very best I can for them in spite of their beginnings. If I thought contact was in their interests, then I would support it. I don't and I won't.And my kids agree

But Garden and Nickym - may I gently point out that your children, judging from previous posts, have enormous difficulties re birth mum (one obsessive, the other avoidant) or re you as mum (Nickym). Many (most?) of our children cannot cope with two sets of parents and need to be released from the emotional work of contact with birth parents (or the frank re-traumatisation by them as others have vividly pointed out). Yes there will be exceptions where contact might be beneficial to the child, but it MUST always be about the child. We need to leave the birth parents' care in the hands of others. That just cannot be our job.

My oldest wants and has letterbox contact with his BM, who despite her inability to parent, and unwise choice of partner for a while, still loves him and wants the best for him, and was pleased he got a new family to look after him.No problem for us in this kind of contact, childless as we WERE ( not any more since these two became our sons!)Younger child is a different kettle of fish. He came into care having been terrified of bf, as were his siblings. He was relieved when told he would not be seeing him. He was also relieved when BM contact was stopped as it was not positive for him. Non disclosure order in place all throughout his time in care because of risk to him and us. No way would contact be appropriate and he has the right, in my opinion to feel he is safe now. He is waking up in fear every night and I am certain that is because of what was done to him in the past.I am hugely relieved to hear that Facebook will be a much reduced threat when he gets to that age.

Also, he asked his therapist why his bf was not in jail for what he had done? A very good question in my opinion, it seems that justice is not for our kids, even if the proof hearing after they come into care, confirms that offences were committed, there is no criminal action taken , So as to avoid kids having to face a court case which , because of the way our courts work, would traumatise them worse. So the abuser gets away with it, and maybe that leads to them having opportunities for further abuse of other kids.

Nickym, I have split up from boyfriends and know that a clean break - no continued contact that leaves a bit of hope, not occasional letter or message that leaves still more hope, makes the split easier, gives both sides a chance to move on without the constraints of wondering about or wondering how it would affect each other.For the record, Miss X has a lot of contact with bf - but I wouldn't do it again. She has direct contact with most siblings, we have great relationships as families (luckily). I even took her to meet birth mum last summer! But I still believe a clean break would have allowed her to settle more into our family. As it is she thinks she belongs in our family, she also wonders about the other family that continue to contact her. She loves her brother (I hope) but worries about the sister that she sees on a regular basis that is not adopted - is she safe, is she happy? She says he is not your brother don't love him, how does that help Miss X to fit, how does that help her to be part of OUR family? The extended birth family that constantly try to communicate with her in Facebook, telling her how much they love her and miss her and she is part of their family - how does that help us when she is telling me to F off and kicking my doors in and stealing from me and lying to me and being brought home by the police? I tell her I am her we are her family and will always love her and be here for her and then you get them...telling her the opposite. As for holidays together, no thanks! Don't get me wrong, I am not your typical middle class person - I am from the estate, first member of my family to ever go to university or have professional career but I do not have a wish to holiday with those people, nor can I see how it would benefit MY child (I am not a babysitter!), they are not my type of people, they are the sort of people that social services considered unfit for my child, why would I want to holiday with them and subject my child to that confusion? I understand the point was made as an extreme, please accept my response in the same vane. We should never lose sight of the fact that everything we do for our children should be in their best interests - not out of political correctness! And I would hope that none of us, I know I wouldn't, would chose to do anything that we knew to be detrimental to our children. However, I stand firm that in my opinion contact with Miss X family has brought e her more uncertainty, confusion and caused her to continue to feel an outsider in her own family (our family)

I have to say that I am extremely negligent when it comes to letterbox, we have three children all from different parents, (a mix of pedophiles, drug addicts etc) all with various half siblings milling around (some adopted some not) and it just got to be too much of a bi-annual chore. So I stopped it and no-one has seemed remotely bothered. My oldest (14) did ask the other day if I still wrote, I said no, we had a chat about his life now and his life before and he went off happier - I think because he knew there was no longer any contact. My youngest's (eight) only worry is that his birth mother will come and get him - the 14 year old went through the same thoughts at his age. My middle child (11) who is the only girl, does not seem to be interested in the slightest. In fact I got their life story books out the other day as I thought I should see if there was any latent desires, but no - they were all much more interested in the photo albums I made for each of them this Christmas which showed the longevity of their life with us. So I don't think it is a partnership with the birth parents, for us anyway. My worry is that we have taken our children so far out of the underclass they were born it, that they would simply have nothing in common with their birth family should they ever meet up and feel 'odd'. I am delighted that their birth parents can't initiate contact - I think contact should be done when the child is ready for it and not when they are navigating adolescence which is rocky enough at the best of times. And if it gets more people adopting then isn't it just another of those compromises that at least gets children out of care and into homes where they have a chance, even at the risk of it not working every time.

I have to agree with MadridThere are a number of bf who are simply incapacitated as parentsHorrid as the facts are, there are a number of bfs reflected here who have chosen to burn, rape, starve, send out and abandon their own children.With the situation as it is, even these adoptive families taking on kids from these families are encouraged and penalised If they don't keep up with contact.This is wrongIt's just wrong

I am so glad to see this posted Fruitcake. Contact has quite frankly been an inappropriate disaster here. Despite successful convictions for very serious crimes against MY children contact was deemed appropriate. Direct contact took place pre adoption order with an extended family member. The obvious difficulty for the children was quite painful to witness. Eight years later my eldest cannot speak of this without tears. I used to share letterbox with them but it was clear they found it too difficult. They are extremely clear that they do not want letterbox to happen and the LA we adopted the children from are in agreement too. After a mammoth reading of the files session with PASW in the placing authority the SW were agast that DC or even LB was part of the plan.I don't have lots of research to quote but I do understand first hand how difficult and retraumatising any kind of contact can be for children who have really suffered at the hands of their birthparents.

Passport our contacty thing is similarThe bf don't botherAnd this ended up being so painful in our childrenIn the end our son said 'can you stop doing these letters they never send anything back, they are still hurting me this way and you're letting them'I think they deserve a chance to invest in their new family Without fear that bf constantly on their doorstepOver many years I've posted about clever uses of life story work and narrative therapy which we've used to good affect to help the children value themselves and found reference to one distant family member who was kind once. This was possible, partly because they felt secure hereNo one is coming to hurt them hereWe've educated them on Facebook and had some trouble but there is no allure as far as bf contact is concernedThey've moved from thinking the bf might need rescuing by them.I've got a shed load of questions for bf about what really happened at these times and what their version of events is (which will be different to ss)There's a lot of reasons people come to adoption but I get the impression the number one reason is to be a mum/dad to these children. There's a struggle therefore for these children who are traumatised by people in those roles in the bfThat's the problem I thinkIt's got nothing to do with childlessness imo

I agree with others that it should be on a case by case basis. I would be dismayed if the pendulum was swinging back to no contact whatsoever until 18.That said, I am always horrified to hear about BF being able to send birthday and Xmas cards....entirely inappropriate IMO.I would also be very concerned if the main reason for the proposed changes is to attract more adopters. Prospective adopters need to understand that BF are always there, contact or no contact...they aren't going away. They will always be part of the child's history. I thought I understood this before placement but I hadn;t realised the extent to which we 'live with' BF.I see letterbox as between the BF and adoptive parents. I told Dash I was writing last year and showed him the photo we sent, but that was it. If we ever receive a letter from BM () I would tell Dash about the contents rather than reading it to him in its entirety.Direct contact with a much older half sib has been very beneficial for Dash, so I wouldn;t like to see direct contact abolished.

Very interesting debate. I am reading this as a member of birth family although I am an adopter.What would you do if your child contacted their birth family as in Coronation Street? Should the birth parent be prosecuted for allowing it? Or should the adoptive parent be prosecuted for not safeguarding their child? What if its just siblings involved.I can see both sides of the situation and therefore agree that each case needs to be judged individually. Also, I often pop up on the boards to comment on letterbox contact. In my experience birth family have no rights at all. We are fortunate to have a letter once a year and are aware that this could be stopped at anytime regardless of our feelings. (For information - I pose no threat to the children, I am doing it for their youngest sister who we adopted.)

Larsti - there is no suggestion that any form of contact, direct or indirect, is to be universally banned. There is acknowledgement that in a minority of cases, contact is appropriate and beneficial and that will continue to be possible.My experience has taught me, though, that my younger children are calmer and more serene for having no birth family contact. All their emotional eggs are in one basket, as it were, and I think that helps them. To be honest, they are only mildly interested in adoption, though we do talk about it from time to time.The going on holiday with the birth family thing is appropriate for adoption via voluntary relinquishment, more common in America than here. It would be absurdly inappropriate in many of our cases. Mandating contact after severe abuse is frankly retraumatising and abusive in itself, imo.Our PASW in fact recommend against contact at age 18 even, and suggest it is better attempted (if the young adult wants this) when they are settled in life, i.e. have comnpleted their education, chosen a job or career and found a long-term partner. The late teens and early twenties is too early for many of our young people and risks de-stabilising them - or so we have been told and it makes sense to me.

I don't follow Coronation Street but yes, I think birth parents who condone unauthorised contact should be prosecuted, even if it is initiated by the child. Responsibility always rests with the adult. (Obviously if they are contacted e.g. on Facebook but do everything they reasonably can to block it and report it, that is different.) The adoptive parents should not be prosecuted for not safeguarding their child unless it is clear that they have been grossly negligent. If it is siblings only, then it becomes a welfare issue and prosecution wouldn't normally be relevant, unless in the case of an older teenager threatening a much younger or more vulnerable child.Frankly, if this becomes law and is properly enforced, the whole problem of children seeking birth family contact should be resolved. Children and birth families do it now because they can.And birth families who "pose no risk to the child" can still destabilise and emotionally harm children with unauthorised or inappropriate contact. It is time imo that adoptive families were much more respected and protected in law.(And of-course the loss to birth families is incalculable, but it happens for a reason which is the best interest of the child. If we want the option of adoption, we had better respect it and protect it.)

Yes I had assumed it wouldn't be a blanket ban but you never know...as you said fruitcake, 'fashions' come and go and at the time they are received wisdom I have met adopters who didn't seem to realise that they have the power to say no to letterbox....such was the pressure put on them to appease the BF

Yes Garden it exists - It's called "Long Term Fostering.