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Ditto! One of the greatest things about these mbs is the vast amount of knowledge, advice and experience...none of which you can get from any prep group, home visit or training session. It comes from 24/7 immersion in our children's fears and anger.I might have been too open in my post, but I had an eye to some future mum or dad struggling just like us now and wondering if this ever happened to anyone else.YES! LOTS!

Thanks for posting that GSHHaven't read the other thread but will have a read tomorrow.Did want to say though that I do agree totally with what Garden has said in that quote.And what a profound thing that Shadette said.I read once that trying to change other people is one of the biggest stressors in life and I have found that to be true.Thats not the same as doing our utmost to get the help our children need but the 'results' are not in our control.Also, it is amazing how once we 'surrender' and accept things as they are, somehow things CAN change because we respond differently.All of that is not necessarily adoption related experience BTW but life experience.

Hi -I think it depends on what you mean by "fix". If you mean "trying to turn your traumatised child into a normal child" then I agree that you are flogging a dead horse. And I don't think that any expert that I have come across has promised that. What they do do is to try to give you stratgies to help your child to change. Bryan Post, Dan Hughes, Holly van Gulden, Margot Sunderland... The whole lot of them.They express it in different ways. Some talk about the child being "stuck" at a developmental stage. They offer you the strategies to identify that and put in the experiences to help them move on. Others talk about helping them to develop brain connections. Others major on helping them to feel safe so that they they do not constantly act out of fear.But EVERY single one that I have come across has said or written things that suggest that my role as a parent to my child is to help them to progress.I agree that they do not tell me that I have to fix them. Some, indeed, specifically see me, as a parent, as only one of a number of people working with the child. They do, though, suggest that I OFFER them the means to help themselves. For instance, I offer them love. That is my job. I cannot, however, make them accept it. (It took over a year before Mackerel help my hand voluntarily, for example). Holly van Gulden told me to try to find a way to offer love in which Mackerel could accept it. E.g. if he can't hold hands, work backwards to something less intense, such as ruffling his hair.They see my responsibility, then, as to OFFER. It is the child's responsibility to accept that offer.Having said hat, some offer you strategies to change specific behaviours. Bryan Post, for instance, tells you that he has a strategy that will stop any child from lying within a fortnight. Holly van Gulden, during a question and answer session, frequently told parents that "we can fix that".The other side of the coin, though, is ACCEPTING. Dan Hughes' PLACE acronym includes Loving and Accepting. All experts that I have come across (although some express it more strongly than others) have spoken of the need to accept the child as they are. It is not their fault that they were abused and neglected; it is not their fault that they suffered the loss of a number of their primary attachment figure on numerous occasions; it is not their fault that their brain had to develop in a way that would help them survive.And so we need to accept them as they are and love them as they are.All the best,Corkwing

Our children will never become the children that they would have been without their difficult early life experiences. In that respect we can't fix them.They won't be the children that we would have had if we had had birth children who shared our genes.One thing that I have heard Garden say before is that that we can't necessarily have the family life that we hoped to have before adoption but that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy our children. We do have to love and accept them, as Corkwing says. We have to adapt our dreams to the children that we have. There are things that we may never be able to do with them but there are plenty of other things that we can.

No, I didn't think you were suggesting people give up and I haven't either!

The most useful thing I've done is the NAS Earlybird Course. It's really helped me to understand that (even without ASD diagnoses - yet!) my youngest two children just can't change the way they are. It's helped me to realise that it's the small things that I do that can make all our lives so much easier. Not major things. Really small things that I wouldn't have thought of - and they really do make a difference.Of course I can help them, I can interpret for them and I can try my best to understand the underlying issue. Being a detective, they call it. And understanding that, for instance, having a policeman come visiting in school will produce a meltdown makes it easier to understand, to empathise and to offer the right support. There are things that I won't tolerate - and my children know this. They must push it but there comes a point when they know they're about to overstep the mark. And then I'm afraid I don't parent therapeutically. They do, on occasion, feel my wrath. Sometimes my children behave as they do because of whatever is underlying their behaviour. Frankly, sometimes they're just being children and misbehaving in the way that all children do. I'm the one who has to work that out and react accordingly.My kids are what they are. And behavioural and emotional difficulties aside, they're not my birth children. They don't have my genes, my personality, my attitudes. They're a mix of their own personalities, their life experiences, their birth parents genes with a little bit of nurture from me thrown in.

Interesting thread, and I am of the opinion that no, you cannot 'fix', nor should you try to, I think that can be quite damaging.To understand is the key, to accept, but be supportive and encouraging. Try to find the things that work, not the things that don't.To put this in context (well, maybe just for me, I don't know), I was born with a disability, no one knew what it was and my parents took me everywhere (as you would) to try and find out what was 'wrong' with me and if I could be fixed. I had so many treatments, experiments and procedures, always with the hope that this one would fix me for good. I would get hopeful that this time it would work and I would be normal, it never did, so in the end you give up.Now I don't blame my parents for trying what they could, in all honesty I guess it would have been odd if they didn't, there was no one else like me around they could compare notes with.What I was left with was a person who had something wrong with them that couldn't be fixed. It's hard to live your life to the full knowing there is something wrong with you, that you are not the same as everyone else, not as good.This is what happened to me after years of listening to doctors talking about me, my parents discussing me, failed treatments.What I needed was someone to tell me I was ok as I was, ok you can't do x or y, but you can do z and be good at itFocus on the positive, accept what they can and can't do.My parents wanted to fix me so I could do what everyone else could do, what they could do. Me, I'd known no different than the person I was.Now I know lots of you are going through things I cannot possibly understand right now, I can only look at it from my perspective. Yes I want a diagnosis for my son, but so I can better understand him, he is who he is, and I can't and don't want to fix him.Sorry if I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, it's just a subject close to my heart. Xx

I agree with Corkwing. I don't expect experts to teach me how to "fix" a child, or an adult for that matter. I am a big Dan Hughes fan, and have gained so much from his material and conferences. He taught me to look at communication and behaviour, and try to support the underlying issues/feelings. I feel it is my job as a parent to help my son develop, so I do try to help him to progress, and two years into placement I can see some huge changes in my son. I feel this has been due to love and to therapeutic parenting, particularly Dan Hughes PLACE model, and Playtherapy; structure, challenge and nurture have been key for my son. I need to be mindful that I have an instinct to protect my son and not put him in situations he can't manage, I am mindful that I do also need to gently challenge him. So finding the balance is the challenge for me!So, although I wouldn't dream of setting out to fix my son or his issues, I do actively try to work out if there is a way that I can help him to progress have a fulfilling life.

We think round here that fixable is relative.Giving them the skills and securities to manage the life they've got ahead of them is key right now As an adoptive pair of parents we seem to be unfixable and can't stop trying to keep on keeping on and we just hang on in there and try not to be really hurtI can't help but feel that this is rather a defeatist look at life but I think my impressions of the mother I would be and father mr pt is were very different to how things are. We just go with the flowI am wondering if the reason of adjusting expectations etc is really because if we really looked at the cold hard truth it would be crushing so its more comfortable to just say we're going to lower expectations?Blossom hAs gone further and further into disorder. Partridge has moved in the general direction of recoveryI do know that things got a load more liveable when we started doing much more therapeutic parenting. Tbh we've done lots of regular routines and putting in missing activities anyway but the comfort of facing it all with our cyber community here plus gaining insights and knowledge as we go has changed our son and daughters lives

Shadow, I don't think the report has much basis in researched modern methodologyJust one questionWhere is the evidence for this approach having positive results with severely traumatised children?

Incredibly moving post Sooz. Something I will remember & keep in mind with my two. Thanks for postingDuckling

Hi all,As this was an excerpt from a post that Garden kindly sent me, I just wanted to add, we don't slavishly follow one or other thing. We gravitated towards the Dan Hughes PLACE thinking because some of the behaviours were almost identical to what we could see in our eldest. But we take guidance from all sources, mainly to help US in our parenting.Our aim is to enable our boys to achieve their potential with a slowly slowly approach. We try to focus their attention on the things they CAN do, not the things they can't. We want them to avoid failing and piling more pressure on.That said, we truly don't feel as supported as we feel we could be with our LA, despite asking for over 3 months; instead getting the the equivalent of a "there, there, it'll be OK just keep doing what you're doing and I'll visit again in 2 weeks".Maybe we are asking for too much, but what is too much when you are trying to help your child?Anyhoo, we are having a crisis meeting tomorrow with the LA and our trump card will be the formal request for a Placement Support Meeting, as this seems the only way we will be heard and taken seriously...Cx

Hi Garden,Thanks, we like to think we are nice, calm people who did LOTS of research before we even took a step towards adoption. And continued to do so during and long afterwards.We were not blind to the challenges but it's fair to say there is no way to know how you will feel about them till you're there.Am preparing notes for tomorrow. We want some additional support for us (not just 1 hour a week), some family therapy, and now I think of it...a cleaner would be nice 2 out of 3 wouldn't be bad...Cx

This is a really interesting thread, we had a problem recently, if I had let it continue it potentially could have escalated into something that could have had a long lasting detrimental effect. We have adjusted a situation accordingly and haven't 'fixed' anything but we have completely changed the outcome for both our DD's in the long term I believe. You can not change character traits, but you can make choices that suit those character traits, for instance, parenting, schooling, friendships, medication, non medication, therapy, therapeutic activities, using your gut instinct and this all makes a difference, big or small. I believe parenting is like that anyway, its a guidance thing and I think a lot of BP's also can try and expect of their children to fit in with their needs, but there are obviously greater problems because of the adoption complexities, but great expectations on your children in not always healthy both birth or adoptive. There is a lot at our finger tips and putting effort in to it and as Donatella says being a detective but also adapt ourselves or a situation can actually change an outcome, potentially. Garden and many of those who write regularly are masters at these adaptions for their children, but flexibility in your own thinking is also needed I think which I think is something that Garden also talks about??

I often find it sad when sometimes people look for a 'fix', as if everything can be sorted out with a wave of a wand (figuratively speaking). Often there is no magic wand.When dd and I went to CAMHS, I left the therapists speechless for a few minutes when they asked what I was hoping to achieve from the sessions and I asked for ways to cope with my reactions so I could then help dd to cope with her emotions and she could be able to move on with her life. So many people had asked them for ways to help stop their children behaving like X, Y and Z and never asked for ways to help them simply cope, apparently.I smiled smugly - because I'd learned that the way to help is to change yourself first so you don't react badly to a behaviour and escalate it, by reading these boards. So I wasn't actually as clever as the therapists thought. I had just read some advice...

I completely agree, and believe that parenting is about giving your child what they need to be confident and capable in their own way.And this thread has reminded me of it at just the right time! I have been getting resentful of littly's constant tantrums, and need to remember that what is important is what she is communicating and our relationship - that I need to stop being so judgmental and drop some of the 'should/shouldn't. The reality is there are certain things that she gets anxious about because of her experiences in life, she is not doing it just to be difficult (well, not most of the time!).

Very interesting thread, and really helpful - FehrScaper in particular thanks for your comment: school referred us to CAMHS a few weeks ago and since then I have been thinking a lot about what I actually want from them, and you have summed it up for me perfectly.I have been following Garden's posts for years, and I have really come to appreciate her generosity in sharing her advice and approach to so many things about adoption.